In the last issue, we ran a letter from "Guy," who had recently retired and was roaming the country in his 35 foot motor home, and wanted to meet some other members.

Hello Guy,

I received your e-mail wanting to meet people a month or so ago, but am only
now getting around to answering - sorry for the delay. I may have already missed the opportunity, but if you are ever passing through Columbus Ohio, I'd love to actually meet a fellow cryopreservist. You can reach me at: CaroleS@. and let me know when (and if) you ever come through….Carole Perlman

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It's probably about time I came out of lurkdom and identified myself. I am the other person ('2 new members') who joined CI at about the same time as the man who said he was traveling around the US in his motor home.

(Sorry I don't remember his name.)

My name is Chris, I am 49 and I live alone in my little house at Monbulk, which is in the Dandenong Ranges, about 40 km (25 miles) east of Melbourne, Australia.

I think I first learned of the existence of cryonics from a TV documentary when I was a child. Also, my mother used to give me books and newspaper cuttings about things she thought might interest me. These included a copy of Robert Ettinger's book The Prospect of Immortality. I think I only dipped into it at that time. I certainly didn't read it in full. But I remember clearly the statement about cryonics' plausibility being established by the joining of one fact (about the preservation of bodies at low temperatures) and one reasonable assumption (about the likely capabilities of future medicine).

I *have* read the book in full now, and I am delighted to learn that Mr Ettinger is still alive and a member of this group.

My return to cryonics has been quite fortuitous: In about 1998 I saw and purchased a book called 'The Truth Machine' by James L. Halperin. It must have been remaindered as it was only $3.95 but I consider it one of the best books I have ever read. This book contained a reference to another book by Halperin, 'The First Immortal'. I had to get it ordered in, but I have now read that book also. It was this book as much as anything which has led me to decide on cryonics for myself.

I wish to be cryopreserved partly out of the desire we all have to go on living, partly to see whether it will work (although of course if it doesn't work I will never know that) and partly because I am passionately curious to know the answers to various fundamental questions, such as whether we are alone in the Universe.

The first thing I do when I wake up in the morning is look at my watch, and the first thing I will want to know upon being revived is the year. My body may have been moved during its suspension so I will next want to know where I am (if it is not the CI premises in Michigan). In the novel The First Immortal, Ben Smith hears music by Brahms upon revival. I think I would like 'Songs of Earth and Sky' by Bill Douglas.

I recently joined CI but have not yet signed up for suspension. (To Andy, if you are reading this, I haven't forgotten about the questionnaire or the form for my relatives to sign.) I am currently
in the process of getting life insurance quotes. Any comments or suggestions about how to go about doing this would be most welcome. I gather that 'whole life' insurance is generally considered better for our purposes than the other, more usual variety, 'term insurance' Well there is a lot more I could say but maybe that will do for now. Mr Ettinger, you mentioned a newspaper article which said that term life insurance is better, but did the author say why? Would it be possible to post a link to it?...Chris

The paper was the Detroit News. Perhaps you can find a web link. The reason the author gave for recommending term over whole life etc was just what I said--that she believes you can do better with investments that are not tied to life insurance, and from a life insurance company you should buy pure life insurance, which means term. Or convertible term if you want protection against poor health later in life when you might want new insurance…Bob

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Hey All, Just wanted to say hello. I'm new, fully funded member with CI. Glad to be here....I added my info to frappr.
Take Care,…Ralph

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At Ben's suggestion I thought I'd put the Immortalist Editorial Office on his frapper. Under "location" I typed Satellite Beach, FL. 32937. I left out "USA" because I know where I landed up last time. (Japan!) Well, according to the frapper, the editorial office for The Immortalist is now somewhere in south central Canada!

I'll bet the period after the FL instead of a comma messed it up. Nobody in the US would put a period after a state abbreviation. We would usually either put a comma or nothing at all. I like Frapper. Jordan Sparks

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Tanya Winston
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My name is Ferenc Acs, most people ask me now what kind of strange name this is. It is a quite common Hungarian name. I am in my 30's and live in Germany, more precisely in Bavaria. I am currently employed at a University in the field of brain sciences, I studied psychology.

I am a CI member for quite some weeks now and wish to thank Andy Zawacki for his great support in doing all the paperwork. I received the DNA archiving kit some weeks ago, got to find a notary who will charge a reasonable amount for the witnessing of my signatures. As soon I am clearer about the possibilities of funding I will continue with my suspension arrangements. Hints from German members would be greatly appreciated.

After the lecture of 'The First Immortal' I was at the point to get actively involved with CI. If I would have been asked some years ago, I probably would have regarded cryonics as a extravagant form of a funeral.

Now, I guess that cryonics is a reasonable alternative to be buried and dead, I mean really dead. I am not ill and hope to experience a long enjoyable life, if anything comes in between it is good to have a backup plan. So, here I am!
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My name is Gabriel. I'm a musician and student currently living in London, England. My interests include music, literature, art, martial arts, traveling, mythology, history, among others.

For some time I had had a strong reaction to humanity deathist philosophies. I had always thought death to be unnatural and disgusting. I don't want to die. I want to live forever (or for a long time, at least). I'm happy and excited to be a member of CI now…Gabriel
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Jeff Davis suggested that perhaps CI could use an RV as a hospice facility.

I suggest you get an RV that you think will suit your needs and that everyone else do the same. I personally, have purchased an ambulance. I can guarantee you that your group is far too small for you to be able to depend on anyone else. If you want the resources, then you have to supply them yourself. My ambulance, for instance, would probably do you no good at all since it's located in Oregon and is in too poor of condition to drive long distances, especially in the winter. I'm not interested in an RV for my own hospice care. I would rather pay for ordinary hospice care if and when the need arises. Let me emphasize that every one of us should be building wealth for situations like this. I can always rent an RV if I really need one. Jordan Sparks

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Sorry to say "don't look at my RV" ... I live in it fulltime and have no other home, so it is not a situation such as one sitting unused for lengthy periods of time in someone's driveway. As to that scenario, though, my take on the municipalities surrounding CI (Clinton Twp, Fraser, etc.) is that they very likely have zoning ordinances against parking it on your property. Those types of laws exist less in more rural areas, where CI is not located. Also, depending on one any distance at all from CI kind of defeats the purpose of something being near CI, especially since you could not "live" in it if you moved it near CI.

While visiting in the area, I noticed a couple of coop/condo type apartment
complexes near CI's funeral director in Fraser, with units for sale as low as $40K. Such might provide a "hospice" solution if any one or group were to want to do it. One I spoke to seemed pretty strict about only the owner living in it, no sublets for example - so those factors would need to be discovered before doing any purchase. Apartment rentals are not expensive in that area. Guy Gipson
(RV'in on Lake Superior in "Up North" Wisconsin)
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One thing that I have always been wondering about is why CI doesn't offer some kind of limited standby for patients that will be pronounced close to the CI facility. This doesn't have to be as sophisticated as Alcor or SA, but might confer some additional benefits to the patient. I know CI has a portable ice bath and Thumper.

For example, members who move close to CI can have a credit card on file and use this to fund this limited standby- and stabilization. I also believe some SA employees (such as myself) might be willing to assist with this. At SA we have a lot of medical consumables (catheters, needles, IV sets etc) that we would be willing to donate to CI for this purpose, if we only can find a way to ship it to Michigan. Aschwin

I don't normally report on the cryopreservation of every pet, but I am feeling that I must report that the Cryonics Institute cryopreserved its first hamster in July. The hamster belongs to one of our Members in the UK. As Andy can affirm, the amount of pre-planning and discussion that went into the cryopreservation of this little creature was enormous. Andy built a special shipping box for the hamster which was sent to the UK in preparation. When the horrific anticipated event of deanimation occurred I received a distraught phone call at 4am and I proceeded to contact all of the various parties involved in the shipping. They too had been on alert for the fateful moment.

The hamster arrived at the Detroit airport on a Sunday, which required special permission to get the release. The customs officials handled the transfer of the cryopreserved hamster in a professional and expeditious manner, so that we were able to get a speedy release.

The hamster could not be perfused and so had been shipped in dry ice. We cooled the hamster to liquid nitrogen temperature in our smaller cooling box and it is now being stored in liquid nitrogen in our "Cat-Stat". …Ben Best
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Is it okay to ask how much the hamster preservation cost? I'm sure everyone is wondering about that. People ask me all the time how much Thor's preservation cost me (which is usually less than they've already spent during their lifetime on cigarettes)......Kevin Boyle
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The basic charge for the hamster was $1,000. However, the charges for
shipping the hamster in dry ice from the UK and clearing customs on a
Sunday brought the total shipping and customs costs to something close to another $1,000. It was not easy finding shippers willing to ship a hamster in dry ice. …Ben Best

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While cryonic storage could be seen by a few as a kindly way of preserving animal life, to the majority of the non-comprehending millions, it is more likely to be seen as brutal treatment of animals, requiring endless hours of rebuttal. We don't need this. It is most important that we steer clear of animal rights people, some of whom have been known to engage in extreme forms of protest, in pursuit of what they see as a just cause.

If, Ben, you feel that there are important considerations for pursuing this kind of activity despite its costs to the organization, then you need to state clearly what those reasons are. I can see where there will be a need to preserve animals, perhaps in significant numbers, duplicating current perfrusion practice so that in the future they can be used figuratively as "guinea pigs" allowing us to figure out what the re-animation protocols will be for humans without risking the lives of preserved human patients in the process.

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The first and most essential reason for offering pet cryopreservation is that many of our Members love their pets and want to cryopreserve them. There is more of a danger of facing ridicule over cryopreserving a hamster than a dog or cat, but I don't want to be drawing the line on which animals we
will accept and which we will reject.

Far from being a distraction, however, we have learned from every pet that we have cryopreserved --including the hamster which we cooled to liquid nitrogen temperature in our cooling box. The work we do on pets results in better work done on humans. The strongest argument in my mind against doing pets would be if we could get 501(c)13 status by refusing to accept more pets. But that argument is simply not strong enough. I would not want to be denying pet cryopreservation service to our Members. And I don't want to be discouraging our Members from cryopreserving their loved-ones….Ben Best

.I stand by my comment. I am most distressed at your response which I
feel is very inadequate and fundamentally unresponsive. You are just asking for trouble by going in this direction and by so doing I fear that you may be trifling with the future of our organization.

Animals that are used in research and development to advance the science of biostasis should be chosen as part of protocols to pursue these aims and funding for such work should come either from our endowment, such as it is, research grants, or our general funds. It is improper to put member pets in this category. Moreover, if the pet is a loved object, then the owner-member will probably not want it used
for experiments as their apparent wish is for the animal to be alive and kicking when they are returned to that happy condition. The fact that members love their pets is no answer at all. You must draw the line somewhere and where is the fee structure for all this?
What are you going to do with my beloved pet horse, for example?

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I think this is a caricature of Ben's position. My understanding is that a cryonics organisation that cryopreserves pets tries to do the best it can, within reasonable financial and logistical constraints. This doesn't contradict Ben's position that we can learn more from cryopreserving pets. As a matter of fact, we also learn from cryopreserving humans!

What would be dubious is to run cases (pet or human) as part of a research program, in which some humans or pets would be assigned the "control group". That would be disturbing. But that's not what Ben is suggesting. Aschwin

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I feel that Ben's approach and response were right on target, for whatever that's worth….Jordan Sparks

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It is certainly not adding any credibility to cryonics, I suggest this case isn't mentioned on the CI site. Of course you could say that it is the wish of someone and they pay for it, but isn't credibility at stake here? When will someone's favorite insect be preserved?

I would like to ask the person who suspended his or her dog for what reason he decided to do so? Is it for personal reasons (because you liked the animal very much) or because you want to extend the life of the dog for the dog itself?

Because I think that if the suspension of animals happens for the second reason (for the life extension of the dog itself), human values are projected on animals that don't belong to them at all. The mortality of humans and other animals is totally different in my regard. Of course physically there is no difference.

The big difference is that humans are aware of their mortality, animals aren't (maybe in case of a dog there could be discussion on the degree to a 'pet psychiatrist', dressing it like a barbie doll or of being conscious, but in case of a hamster it's getting all to ridiculous for me). So if one suspends his or her pet because you would like that very special animal back in the future, I see no problem. On the other hand, if one suspends an animal to extend the life for the animal itself, I think there's something wrong with that way of thinking.

You would try to give the animal a sort of gift it cannot even comprehend, because it is simply not aware of such a thing as being and not being. The animal is just a collection of intentional systems who lack the interaction that can come to an understanding of the end of life, ... as humans can. I don't say it should be denied, there's no wrong doing in suspending animals. I just think it's the reflection of human knowledge/fear on a creature that is totally different and is totally unaware of such knowledge/fear. In the case of a hamster, it's like buying a Louis Vitton for your dog to poop in, it's ridiculous, the pet isn't a pet anymore, it has become a gadget for it's owner.

Schopenhauer once said that the world around a pet is very limited, it's a narrow circle because of it's limited conscience, and one should respect that. And we certainly don't to this by freezing it after it's death…David Verbeke , Belgian CI-member

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Personally, I support pet cryopreservation for a completely self serving reason. I would prefer a Guinea pig (or hamster) be the Guinea pig for a reanimation procedure, instead of... me!...Ejay

Your entire post is an assumption of what animals can or can't understand - coincidently the 'answers' you 'know' all have the same bias - one who doesn't value animal life except when used for human pleasure.

You compare extending a dog's life to dressing it up like a Barbie doll - because we should respect it's "limited conscience" - my dog is still smarter than my neighbors. (and he's frozen) It's shocking that even today people can believe animals are just rocks.

People seem more open minded to cryonics when talking about pets -they think of their own dogs whenever I mention my frozen old pup. Even right wing christians told me they wish they'd done the same. Pets might be the best publicity of all, yet you seem to be finding an animal rights war where there is none.I can't believe you brought the animal liberation front into a post about a hamster. Seriously…. "wannabeepoet"

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Whilst pet preservation has its downsides, many members of both cryonics organisations are single people whose relationship with a "companion animal" means a great deal to them. Neither CI nor Alcor could contemplate exterminating those cryopreserved animals they already have, and how could they therefore contemplate refusing new applications?

I think the best policy is to try and dissuade people from cryopreserving pets, but if they are determined to proceed, then allow it….John de Rivaz:

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I think most people know my commitment to cryonics and my firm belief that it is an individual decision to be made. If people want to cryo-preserve their pets, and it can be done, then they should have the freedom to do so. I appreciate Ben's comments that every preservation human or animal, gives experience of the process. I am also an animal lover and have had dogs in my life for many years.

We currently have two Jack Russells and though I love them to bits, I would not consider cryopreservation for them. A dog's life is only a relatively short span of our lives ... we have had four dogs in the last 14 years and I think it is impractical to cryo-preserve any of them, especially living in UK. I am not against giving people this choice if they want. I have been asked to give interviews on pet cryopreservations and this is what I have said.

I have been asked about pets currently in storage and seen incredulous expressions on the faces of interviewers ... a hamster would certainly provoke great interest, especially when money is mentioned.

Their inaccuracies on reporting legitimate facts are frequent (recent experience of an article in the Daily Mail here proves this) and if anything can be sensationalised, all to the good of newspaper sales. Please, let's try to keep it all in proportion and remain dignified for the good of cryonics….Chrissie de Rivaz

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Danila: There is (or rather there will be) such thing as Uplift (upgrading the capacities of non-human animals or other intelligences).

David: And what would be the purpose of that, giving a creature with no self-conscience gradually the conscience of a human being? What's the purpose of creating this überdog?

What is the purpose of conceiving and giving birth to a human child? Same for the uberdog.

Is it our moral task to give animals a self conscience? No!
It depends on your system of morality. Some people do feel it's their moral task.

Is it of any value? No!
Any intelligent self-aware creature has value. So this act clearly creates value where there was none (or much less).

How will this überdog integrate into society?
There won't be a "society" by then. And there clearly won't be limitations on who can integrate into that what we would have.

Do you really expect the future with so advanced tech that we can uplift a dog to look like the present? Where do we stop?
I don't know.

Is it our goal to give every living thing a self conscience and intelligence?
Not yet. Not sure if that would be a good thing. But giving conscience and intelligence to one single dog is different. BTW, it wouldn't be the same dog anymore once you've upgraded it's brain, Just like it is with a human. Are you the same human as that toddler that took its first breath X years ago? No. Do your parents love you less because of that? No.

It would be an entire new being.
Not entirely. P.S. Our policy at KrioRus is that we are willing to cryosuspend an elephant, assuming all expenses are covered. So you cowboys with the horses and other livestock, give us a call.

You say you would preserve an elephant if all expenses were covered. This whole thing of preserving hamsters or even cows if someone is ridiculous enough to pay for it has nothing to do anymore with "the dignified quest to preserve a human body in such way that it could eventually be reanimated in the future", on the contrary, it smells like ordinary charlatanerie.

We consider ourselves to be in the business of freezing things and storing them frozen. Expansion into related services, that's what many companies do. It's just business. I don't care about pets. I don't even care much about other humans. But since I work in the field of cryonics, preserving life is what I will opt to do, given a choice. Viva hamster.

The concept of cryonics should be a professional endeavor to preserve human life organized by professional organized institutes. The preservation of parrots and hamsters has nothing to do with the primary mission. It has everything to do with the technology .of cryonics organisations, and is from a rational point of view completely useless.

This kind of quackery makes me very skeptical towards some people in the cryonics community, and even towards

the insitutes.

Not drawing clear lines around their project (that was meant to be a serious endeavor) will possibly make them end up look as one of the many charlatan projects in this world instead of a serious scientific endeavor .

Do you feel the same way towards any other field? What about airlines that operate cell phone stores? Coffee shop chains that also sell frozen vegetables? Tea manufacturers that also operate railroads. There can be perfectly legitimate business reasons for that Same with cryonics and even more so.P.S. This e-mail message was not entirely serious. Danila Medvedev
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and I'll bet there are lots more too! Kevin Bloom*

I had been meaning to sign up for cryonics for almost 30 years. It was only when my best friend Thor was becoming old and sick that I actually signed up, knowing I had to, in order to have him preserved. During Thor's de-animation my grandmother also decided 30 years was long enough to put it off and she too became a member. So Thor netted CI two human members and I continue to try to add more members myself to CI from friends and family. Also, the media publicity concerning Thor's preservation has caused numerous people to ask me all sorts of things about cryonics and most of the comments I received about Thor were overwhelmingly positive.

I think many people think of cryonics as something for rich, old people and a lot of people feel they are just being greedy to want to live on further (while using their money to do so). Most people hope they are correct and these rich, old people merely wasted their money. I think Thor, however, puts a "human face" on cryonics. People genuinely root for Thor. They hope for his sake that cryonics does work…..Kevin Boyle