In the "Editor's Corner" (page 22) of the last issue (July-August) of THE IMMORALIST our beloved editor John Bull (#45) shows a startling enthusiasm for his CI Member number. I would think that most people don't like being treated as a number or statistic, but want to be regarded as a person with a *name*. This is the way we regard our CI Members.

The numbers were assigned in alphabetical order by Member last name when I created the CI computer database of Members in October 2003. Members did not have numbers prior to that time and the assignment was made simply because a good database requires a simple, unique identifier ("key") for each person's data. CryoCare began their Member numbers with 2001, but we simply started with number one (we look out for "number one"). At present there are 535 Members and the numbers range from 1 to 592, indicating that we have lost 57 Members since October 2003 (usually Option Two Members who stopped paying dues.)

Any Member wanting to know his or her number is welcome to ask, but in most cases I doubt that this will be of much value. I have put my CI Member number (#24) on my bracelet and necklace, but I have also put my name -- which I think is more important, unless another "Ben Best" joins CI. We do have a few Members with the same first and last name, usually father and son.

Ben Best

John Bull replied: #24, Thanks for the message, (beloved??) and the same to those who mailed me privately. But you didn't clarify one thing. Obviously I was wrong in assuming Bob Ettinger was #1.So, who is #1? If you don't reveal his/her name it will go down in history's puzzles second only to Who Was Deep Throat?

#45

Ben replied:

Not everyone is public about their Membership, #45, and we do not reveal Member names without explicit permission. Robert Ettinger is public about his Membership and he probably won't mind if I reveal that he is #102. But Connie (Ettinger) is an enviable #100. The most that I can say about Member #1 is that it is a person whose surname begins with the letter "A". Member #428 has a surname that begins with the letter "Z". For Member #429 and above the Members are simply ordered by the date they joined.

#24 (Ben)

John K. Strickland, Jr. wrote: No, those of us who like to show off our early numbers are NOT numerologists. For example, my NSS (caving) number is 7742 and my NSS/L5 (space) number is 930. Today, these are incredibly low numbers. Thus I can say that I was among the first 1000 people to join the L5 Society and the first 10,000 to join the National Speleological Society. Imagine if Cryonics really took off and member numbers were in the 100,000 range! This is just having a little fun with very minor status symbols!

John

Is there any strategy/goal in how CI is planning it's future? It's very quiet here and among CI members in general (including other newsgroups), which adds up to the "problem" that most new cryonicists are signing up with Alcor instead of CI, and the improper daylight in which some Alcor-members are trying to push CI lately.

If this is all according to some conservative plan, then that's fine. From a business perspective it seems we're approaching a deadlock-situation where a lack of passion and interest will soon be halting growth for CI. And then the vicious circle will be much stronger to break than the standard why-is-cryonics-not-hitting-shelf circle. How many CI-members have (fully) signed up for a CI-SAI standby plan since these plans were introduced?

Reflecting on your past 2 years as CI President, how do you look onto CI's progress globally in comparison to the years before 2003 and in comparison to Alcor? (not mentioning vitrification)

How do you think you're doing, personally, as President of CI? Is it harder than you had thought before you took the position? Do you see areas for personal improvement? Do you have concrete plans for increasing the fully contracted-to-member ratio?

Jappie Hoekstra

Let me say that I welcome input from CI Members, but his belittling tone makes it difficult for me to respond in as friendly a manner as I would like to.

Jappie Hoekstra" wrote:

(quoting BENBEST)

When I read this quote from me I found it hard to believe that I said it, but indeed I did. I was really wanting to gloss-over this issue, but in doing so I very much misrepresented myself. So now I will go into detail on what I was trying to avoid.

Two negative experiences stick out in my mind concerning pre-announcement, both associated with Yuri's vitrification formula. I believe the letter soliciting funds for research that was sent-out about three years ago went overboard in promising speedy development of vitrification. Only in the last year have we succeeded in developing it to the point where we have been ready to use it -- and we have only used it thus far on the dogs of a two of our Members (insofar as we have had no human patients in 2005 thus far.) I think many people felt misled due to the long time it actually took to develop the vitrification mixture. Plans to produce electron micrographs of vitrified brain tissue were an even bigger disaster. This proved to be far more difficult than we expected, and especially far too expensive for us to continue attempting. The pre-announcement was an inducement to overspend disastrously, but we did resist doing so. We’re relying now on Potassium-Sodium ratios, visual observation and knowledge of the formulation. At some time we may return to the project of trying to produce electron micrographs, but there are much more urgent research projects now. I will announce tangible results when they occur.

From the above explanation I hope it is clear, that although the experience was disappointing for me personally, what really concerns me is the disappointment produced in our Members. I would rather announce tangible and positive results, rather than things that may never materialize -- partly also to prevent inducements to throw good money after bad in a frantic effort to fulfill a pre-announced goal.

On the other hand, I will concede that I may be over generalizing in my policy. There may be many areas in which Member involvement in planning for projects could be very productive. And I do think that marketing may be one of those areas.

I am emotionally involved in what I do, but I am genuinely concerned about the welfare of the Cryonics Institute. It isn't just about me, and as I said above, I have made a misrepresentation if it appears otherwise.

A new question: Is there enough activity on the Director's private Mailing list? Is there ANYONE on that list with plans on where CI should be in 3 years from now?

No, certainly including me. I don't particularly understand what you have in mind. I see no value in having a 3-year plan, a 5-year plan or a 10-year plan at this state. Although we are relying on future technology, I find that the future can be quite unpredictable. I have a general thought that the time will come when we may buy a new building or there will be a facility in Europe, but I wouldn't dream of saying what year that would occur.

I view the resources of time and money and I review the projects that I believe should be accomplished, I prioritize these and I try to accomplish them. The discussions among the Directors focus on specific problems and projects, not 3-year plans.

I don't see the stagnancy in Membership that you see. A year ago we had about 460 Members and now we have about 540. That's a gain of +80 people who filled in ONE piece of paper which they can print from the Internet, and paid the relatively small membership dues.

$1,250 may be relatively small for you, but it is a significant commitment for many of our Members. I do not demean the meaningfullness of either Option One Membership or Option Two.

If anyone is hyperventilating about Alcor it seems to be you. My first priorities are patient care and the stability of the Cryonics Institute. Marketing is further down the line. In a subzero position is the gloating and breast-beating I see in CryoNet about "CI versus Alcor". I am sickened by this kind of behavior and I oppose it. I see it as being counter-productive to co-operation between organizations and as a waste of energy. I have seen too many examples of cryonicists destroying valuable energy fighting each other (both within and between organizations), when that energy would have been much better spent doing so many of the constructive things that need doing. I don't waste much energy trying to douse the flames on CryoNet.

80 new CI Members in a year is spectacular considering that 8 new Members per year in the 1980s would have been astounding. 80 is much better than 8 and much worse than 800 or 8,000. I am not smug about our growth, but I see no reason to be displeased. Yes, I would like to see more growth, but I would not conclude that something is wrong with us simply because of Alcor's numbers.

I feel I have moved mountains in making improvements. Again, see the President's Reports in THE IMMORTALIST.

I agree that many improvements have been made during the past 2 years ,but hope it's enough. I estimate it's not.

Enough for what? One CI Member frequently expresses concern to me that I not drive myself so much and take better care of myself to prevent "burn-out". You clearly don't have such a concern insofar as you seem so intent upon lighting a fire under me.

But I would like to accomplish more, better, faster. As much as I do, I often find myself intensely frustrated by how slow so many projects are in coming to fruition. As I said, marketing has not been very high on my priority list in my first two years as President, but I do have some marketing plans for this Fall, which I will announce when the time comes.

If you feel that you can do a better job than me, I invite you to run for Director. You should submit a 100-word statement about yourself for your candidacy before August 19. You can even submit it to this forum. If you are elected Director and impress the other Directors enough you may become President. If not this year, maybe next. CI is a Member-based democracy, and if the President is not the most qualified person for the job in the eyes of the Members, there is no obstacle to replacement.

Again, the best move I have made in this direction is to have The IMMORTALIST sent to all CI Members (one per family). Many who might have not given much thought to their membership have been making arrangements.

In thinking about marketing I have been wondering how aggressive to be with out Members and others. I do not want to be "pushy" and I have been thinking of ways to experiment, including personally calling, as you suggested -- while keeping track of those Members who tell us that the call is not appreciated. Very early as President I innocently phoned one of our more prominent Members and his wife answered the phone. He later told me firmly that cryonics is a very contentious issue in his household, that my phone call aggravated the issue --and he told me use his cell or work phone rather than his home phone in the future. A mass phoning of Members could be a minefield.

2) Since it's so quiet around CI, itwouldn't hurt to take a small survey among all your members, to find out about bottlenecks and areas in which they see CI could use improvement. This also shows members you're interested in hearing from them and value their input. You could print a one-page survey with 5-10 questions and mail this form with the invitation for the upcoming AGM.

There are already many things to stuff in the general Membership mailing in August and I don't want to overload the envelope, for a number of reasons. What questions would you want to see asked? This forum should be a perfect place to ask questions. There are 183 CI Members on this forum -- surely the most actively involved of our Members. If there are questions to be asked and answered, this would be the most convenient place to do it.

Ben Best

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Marta Sandberg wrote

There have been comments lately about the growth rate of both CI and Alcor. Implicit in these discussions has been the idea that bigger is better and growth means success.

Let me play the devils advocate by arguing for the opposite. The most important feature of a cryonics organization is stability. The hard part is not suspending people today; it is building a structure that can keep me frozen for a century or more. Maybe I won’t need that much time . . and maybe I will.

Anything that grows is inherently unstable. The organization will sooner or later grow out of the old and time-proven way of doing things and have to try out a new way of managing. Every change means there is a possibility of failure. Being bigger also means an organization is more likely to draw attention to itself. Unfriendly attention.

A few years ago somebody - possibly Thomas Donaldson - said that a cryonics organization only needed to keep its numbers steady to be viable. In other word if two people were suspended in 2005, then CI only needs to recruit two new members to survive (plus any additional recruits if a member simply resigned).

The reality is that cryonics is growing. Of course I rejoice for every human being we sign up. If cryonics works that means one more life saved. But it would be foolish to consider growth to be an end in itself. Slow and steady has worked very well for CI so far. Finally I would like to mention that I was very happy when Ben Best became President of CI and I think we are lucky as long as he is willing to continue.

Long life,

Marta Sandberg

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Hi everyone. My name is Jordan Sparks and I just defected from Alcor after almost 15 years. I suppose on some level it had to do with their recent astronomical price increase. Although I can easily afford it, I want to recruit people in my town so that I can have a true support network. I can't recruit them if the price is too high. Anyway, I'm very excited now that I've learned more about CI. Over the next few weeks, I will be:

-Establishing a relationship with a local funeral director, probably putting him on an annual retainer. -Gathering all necessary supplies (need to find out what the heck a Ziegler shipping container is. -Starting a website to organize the process-Stop paying dues to Alcor-Getting my life insurance and will reorganized.-

I have my new website up and running: www.oregoncryo.com It's a very rough draft, so no cool graphics yet, but they are coming. Once it is looking really professional, it will be time to start aggressive local advertising. But we will first have to look very polished. We will need to look like we've been doing this for years. I guess a banner across the top is the most important.

Jordan Sparks

Welcome aboard Jordan Sparks, You've made a wise choice. You and I agree a lot about why CI is good on the issue of making cryonics available to the masses at a reasonable cost. That was my major reason for joining CI as well.

Long Life,

Jack Nixon

Yuma AZ

I've spent the last 4 hours reading the Oregon statutes regarding funeral directors, embalmers, and immediate disposition companies. They seem to be quite clear:

"An individual practices as a funeral service practitioner if the individual for payment is engaged directly or indirectly in supervising or otherwise controlling the transportation, care, preparation, processing and handling of dead human bodies before the bodies undergo cremation, entombment or burial, or before the bodies are transported out of the State of Oregon." And, of course, a license is required to be a funeral service practitioner.

So how is it that anyone can legally perform standby services without the involvement of a funeral director? Alcor, especially, seems to make a big deal about their standby services. But how is it that they can legally process or transport a body without being licensed as a funeral service practitioner? Is SA licensed as such? Do they have to be licensed in all 50 states? How can any of this possibly be legal.

Jordan Sparks

Because the American Cryonics Society is located in California, it has piggy-backed on the Alcor UAGA in that state equality under the law. As Alcor has done, ACS assumes that other states will acknowledge the precedent set in California. The Cryonics Institute has ACS as a client and has accepted its patients, so this provides some validation of being an organ donor recipient. Suspended Animation also acts under UAGA. In the worst case, cryonics organizations would be forced to have Funeral Directors on every standby.

Ben Best

Again from Jordan: I'm sure you've answered this question many times before, so I apologize for bringing it up again. I've been searching, but can't locate an answer. Don't you ever have a problem during the flight to Michigan with some of the ice melting and leaking out of the baggies surrounding the patient? It is my understanding that, outside of cryonics, bodies are usually shipped dry. The funeral directors are liable if the shipping container leaks. This actually seems to be a big problem to me. I did notice that Alcor custom builds waterproof shipping containers.

Our funeral director guidelines are on our website:

http://www.cryonics.org/funeral_guidelines.html

We normally use Ziegler shipping boxes, which are what funeral directors all over the US normally use for shipping bodies. Not only in cryonics cases, but in all cases of shipping human remains it would be undesirable to have anything leaking from a shipping box containing human remains. Ziegler boxes are metal boxes with a rubber gasket liner at the top. The top has metal screws that are screwed-down to keep the lid on tight. The patient we just received for example, was shipped in a plastic body bag that could be zipped closed. Most of the ice was in the plastic body bag with the patient, but some was on the outside. The plastic body bag and ice was in a Ziegler.

Ben Best

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Dear Robert,

First let me say what an honour it is to be corresponding with someone who is so distinguished and a true pioneer in such a bold area as cryonics.

I found out about your organization simply by doing a Google search under the word 'cryonics'. I just checked again and see that CI is still #1 in Google under this crucial word. That is an accomplishment in itself! If you stay in this position then you will be the envy of every other cryonics organization! People are becoming more and more savvy and will compare cryonics organizations and those who do will almost invariably choose CI if for no other reason that their reasonable rate structure, which was why we chose CI.

.Bruce Foerster, Managing Director

Jaguar Reef Lodge www.jaguarreef.com

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We have received some inquiries concerning the Cryogenics Institute. Despite the similarity of the names, the other CI does not cryopreserve humans or pets and our CI does not do cryogenic treatment of golf clubs:

http://www.nitrofreeze.com/golf.html

Ben Best

But, sadly, when she died on July 29th, her children decided, after long and careful consideration of this option, not to use cryonics. :( We, the group of Russian cryonicts, were willing to try and carry out the suspension (with subsequent transportation to CI), but were not given such an opportunity.

Still, we remain strongly committed to organizing a cryonics company in Russia. This death is yet another demonstration that a functioning organization is needed to help people to consider the option of cryonics before it is too late.

Danila mailto:danila.medvedev@mail.ru

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This is clearly a milestone of some sort. Today (August 19, 2005) many people in Russia received possibly the first ever cryonics spam. Most likely this isn't a genuine offer, but just an attempt to promote a medical web-site with unusual advertising message, and it's probably not a very good thing, but nevertheless, this is a big day. The spam says (translated from Russian into English by myself):

For the first time in Russia Eternal sleep, Inc. has realized the dream of immortality. We offer you to freeze yourself or your friend with thawing in 200-300 years - this is the shortest path to the bright future. The costs of freezing, per 1 kg of client's body mass.

Between 100 and 200 years - 1200 USD

between 200 and 300 years - 1300 USD

more than 300 years - from 1500 USD

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Being perhaps CI's newest member (I paid for my life membership 2 weeks ago, but haven't gotten around to completing all the contract forms as yet) I have been reading all the latest e-mails with great interest, and not a little trepidation. I know there is in-fighting among all organizations, but I would hope that CI members are intelligent enough to pick their fights wisely, and remember that just because you are (or think you are) smart, doesn't make your opinions correct I contacted Alcor as well as CI before making my decision. I will admit that cost was a major factor in my choice, but that was because I felt that Alcor was spending too much money on PR and sales. I guess I looked at it like contributing to a charity, in that I want all my money to go to the people who need it, and not to ancillary services. I was impressed and also appalled at the information packet I got from Alcor after only one phone call to them for some general information. That packet cost quite a bit to produce. They also had a member call me to try and sell me on cryonics and of course Alcor. I did resent the contact and considered it exactly like the unsolicited calls that made me put all my phone numbers on the National Do Not Call Register. Anyway, just thought you'd like a fresh opinion from the new kid on the Block.

Carole Perlman

Bruce Foerster wrote: Unfortunately I will not be any where near Florida at the end of Aug. to see this facility. One question that nags at me constantly though is why these other facilities charge so much more for their services than CI. Why would someone pay so much more for essentially the same service?

The offerings of the Cryonics Institute and of Suspended Animation are not the same. CI mainly handles Membership and Storage, whereas SA mainly handles Standby and Transport. These functions are complementary.

"Standby" means waiting by the bedside of a person who is recognized to be in critical condition and is likely to be pronounced dead within the space of a few days. The Standby team of SA would be a fully-equipped group of people who have professional expertise in minimizing ischemic injury for cryonics cases.

"Transport" involves actions immediately following pronouncement of death. For SA this would mean cooling in an ice-bath with the application of cardiopulmonary support from a thumper. The patient is transported to a funeral director, blood is washed-out using state-of-the-art cryonics technology and the patient is packed in ice for shipment to CI.

Ben Best

Andrew Clifford made some useful comments about terminology yesterday.

Dispite Andrews unwillingness to go along with cryoneer , I point out that the following definitions that are true not by my edict but rather by the nature of the English language itself. A cryonaut is one who is currently cryopreserved. He's the one DOING the cryonic travel, thus the suffix naut , from the Latin or Greek meaning something close to travel . Andrew can't possible be a cryonaut while alive, by definition, regardless of his unwillingness to accept that. His example of the astronaut who doesn't travel to space is weak since a grounded astronaut is a prospective astronaut. In this way, Andrew is a prospective cryonaut . If we were to push the semantics, we would call astronauts who don't go into space astroNOTs . In fact, this nomenclature is already being used widely. Similarly, a person who died without being preserved would be a cryoNOT .

The cryoneer, on the other hand, is the guy like you or me who is alive and fully signed up and fully funded. THAT is a specific assigned definition to be sure but the eer suffix is a shortened version of er to describe a person in action as Andrew himself points out. The terms mountainEER , and canyonEER are in use widely to this effect, providing linquistic precedents for cryonEER (Check Google hits yourself and you'll see). A canyoneer is one who takes action going through canyons. A mountaineer is one who takes action climbing mountains. Similarly, a cryoneer is one who takes action in cryonics-- that action, most critically, being to fully sign up and to be fully funded. Without the full funding part, a cryonic preservation cannot take place. The full funding is the fulcrum around which everything else depends. Thus, it's fitting to place full funding as the action point that uniquely defines the cryoneer.

Cryoneer Counter

I have not commented on your postings previously, Jordan, so I want to belatedly tell you how awestruck I am by your initiative and vision.

I have done a great deal of work to improve patient care given to CI patients, including finding ways to improve deliveery of our vitrification protocol and developing a cooling box to optimize cooling. To deal with the ischemia issue I have worked to create the contacts with Suspended Animation to make available to CI Members the option of a professional cryonics standby team. Personal alarm systems are also part of the solution:

http://www.cryonics.org/personal_alarms.html

But I am also eager to create local low-cost self-help options-- fostering the creation of local groups and/or the support of friends and family, where possible. I believe that the local group I helped to create in Toronto is a model of what I would like to see created for CI Members (and other cryonicists) in many places:

http://www.benbest.com/cryonics/toronto.html

(The UK people are also exemplary, and Australians have been active.) In Toronto I spent years building a local group of cryonicists by giving lectures to libertarians, skeptics, mensans, unitarians, humanists, etc. -- as well as having literature tables at health fairs and science fiction conventions. I collected names of interested people who attended these presentations and invited them to cryonics/life extension social events. What will be your strategy for building a cryonics mutual aid group in Salem, Oregon?

I am very impressed by your ambition to get funeral director/embalmer qualifications. I do think that you can make contributions to the science, technology and implementation of cryonics. For now I am only telling you that you have my emotional support for your efforts. Details of how I can materially manifest support is something we will both have to work upon. I look forward to our teamwork.