Selected messages from the Cryonics Institute Yahoo Group Forum and occasionally Cryonet http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cryonics_Institute/

CI ONLINE DISCUSSION GROUP

CIYG DIGEST

Selected messages from the Cryonics Institute Yahoo Groups forum and occasionally Cryonet

Why is cryonics a "hard sell?"

From Ralph Woodin

I think that maybe what appears to be a logical decision to 'us' seems illogical to many, if not the majority of people. Also, in my opinion, people do not generally live their lives based on reason. People are motivated to think, speak and act based in large part on emotion. They are not generally interested in or bothered about what lies outside of the average human experience. Survival, pairing, procreation, a search for security and comfort of one sort or another is what motivates most people.

That's living life to most people. One merely has to take a look at the news on any day to see how the world runs on fear, pride, greed, anger, sloth, envy, kindness, pity, empathy, love, unselfishness...the list goes on and on. Once again, it's my opinion that the base human emotions are Love and Fear and all things and doings of humans stem from that.

Everyone who is human has these human qualities. To deny having them or to attempt to suppress them (emotions) can lead to internal conflict and neurosis. ie. an exaggerated fear of death or fear of change. Everything in this world that has been born, dies or will die. There would never be anything new under the sun if that were not so. I think we, as cryonicists, are an evolutionary branch, albeit a very small one that may or may not continue. Time will surely tell and I myself find the idea of going against 3 billion years of evolution to be a quite worthy and exiting experience.

Ralph

From Kevin Boyle

I wonder if there are any psychologists (I dread that word) among us that might add insight to this dilemma of why more people don't sign up for cryonics when it appears to be a very logical decision (at least to all of us). With respect to everything Robert Ettinger stated previously (he's probably right), maybe there is something we are all missing that just doesn't occur to our "purely logical" minds. I for one am going to begin asking, rather than trying to convince otherwise, my friends more about why they won't choose life, especially when some of them are atheists with no apparent alternative...

Kevin

From Bob Ettinger

Related to what Kevin said is the Pohl syndrome. Fred Pohl, the science fiction writer, is almost as old as I am, if he is still alive. He helped promote cryonics, and wrote AGE OF THE PUSSYFOOT, a novel based on cryonics. My guess is that the reason he didn't opt for cryonics himself is that he couldn't afford it for his whole family, and didn't want it only for himself.

Bob

From Kevin Boyle

When Bob Ettinger mentions "What they fear is betrayal of their traditions" I think guilt is also involved here. The guilt is not just the betraying of your traditions, but the realization, if you decide to go the cryonics route that it is because it gives YOU the best possibility of "immortality" and hence you begin to feel guilty for burying and/or cremating past relatives and/or friends and not giving them the best chance of survival. Rather than admit they "doomed" their loved ones, many would just as well follow their predecessors. Maybe people have to realize they cannot change what has already happened to those that have already died, but they can still try to save themselves and others that are still alive.

From Robert Ettinger

I don't think fear of death is much involved--more nearly the opposite. People don't fear death very much unless it seems imminent and they are relatively young and healthy. If they were rational and feared (non-imminent) death, for example, they wouldn't smoke or do a lot of other debilitating things. (Marta, do you still smoke like a chimney?) What they fear is betrayal of their traditions, along with effort and risk and responsibility. (Again Dostoyevsky: "Men prefer peace, even death, to freedom of choice in the knowledge of good and evil.")

Does this help us? I think the lesson is to emphasize the things that are more likely to move people, such as keeping up with the times and saving your relatives.

Bob

From Marta Sandberg

People will give a lot of RATIONAL reasons why cryonics aren't for them; the only problem is that these reasons don't hold water when you examine them rationally. I suspect that the real reasons are emotional and probably very closely tied to fear/denial of death.

PS I have given up smoking, but it took a bout of pneumonia to get me to do it.

Marta

From Jack Nixon

Hooray for Marta, (On giving up smoking!) I have a large share of just what Marta is speaking about with my parents. They are both very old, yet in a "state of denial about death", even while death camps out next door. Both are very ill, yet won't admit to their mortality, nor even plan for their funerals nor their cryostasis. Dad has terminal leukemia, and a heart condition. My sister and I have been fighting with them both now for over two years in that regard for making arrangements prior to their demise. So far, only dad privately has indicated where he is willing to be buried. No cryonics here! Not even burial or cremation is any sort of reality for either parent. They intend on living indefinitely and deny that death even exists. I think another word besides newness for the problem is conservatism. No one likes change, and my parents are right out there in the forefront of conservatives. This is their reason for refusal. Even death will be a change that is unacceptable. All funerary arrangements will be left to either my sister or myself, at the last minute of course.
Jack (New CI Board member)

From John de Rivaz

With regards to recent discussion about the merits and demerits of individual reanimation funding, during our recent meeting in Cornwall UK we had some partners of cryonicists or prospective cryonicists who stated that they definitely weren't interested. One of the reasons given was that they would feel out of control.

Obviously someone who has been burned or rotted is also out of control and in the hands of the supernatural if anything. It was not possible to get a full explanation from the individual concerned exactly what was meant by "being out of control".

Marta Sandberg expressed concerns that "outsiders" could gain control of CI’s assets.

Ben Best Replied

I think that a bit of worrying ("paranoia") is a healthy thing, and I encouraged Marta to post her concerns to the CI Members's Forum. Thinking about ("worrying about") and attempting to foresee how things can go wrong is the best way of reducing the likelihood that bad things will happen.

In the last few years we have taken a number of steps which I believe have increased the security of CI's corporate assets. One of those steps was forced upon us: the creation of a patient care trust fund as part of CI being regulated as a cemetery. The Master Cemetery Trust Fund now contains about $300,000 in assets intended for patient care. The Trustees of this fund are York Porter and John Besancon, neither of whom are Directors of CI, but both of whom are long-time Members who have earned the trust and respect of the Directors. Both the signatures of York and John are required to move assets in the Fund.

The other big step we have taken in financial control is to move the nearly $900,000 in prepaid assets to the savings account of a separate bank. The account requires two signatures for withdrawal of assets. Three people have signing authority, one of whom is the President and another of whom is the Treasurer and the third of whom is Robert Ettinger. Almost all of this money is invested in T-Bills, because we believe that stewardship requires us to be able to return these assets rapidly if there should be a "run on the bank" of Members asking for their pre-paid assets back.

CI also has nearly another million dollars spread between three investment accounts: H & R Block, E-Trade (formerly Brown & Co) and Siebert. Much of the H & R Block money (about $300,000) is locked into annuities. Our Assistant Treasurer, Steve Luyckx, has recently decided to become our internal auditor. He has on-line access to all of our accounts and can act as a "watchdog" against any suspicious movements of large amounts of funds. This leaves our Comerica checking account, which basically the President and the Treasurer control. We try to keep no more than $100,000 in this account, and I try to keep no more than $20,000 in cash (at least half in the savings account) and the rest in T-Bills. The President is not supposed to spend more than $10,000 on any one item without approval of the Directors.

I believe that it is good to keep any one person from being able to access too many assets, but we have a President, a Treasurer and an Internal Auditor who have the ultimate authority and who watch each other. If we create more "watchdogs", who will watch the "watchdogs" and how can you guarantee that the watchdogs can be trusted?

Financial controls could be tighter, but there comes a point in which you create so many controls that you end up hamstrung and unable to take effective action when required. This is called bureaucracy. It has its place, but life is not always predictable and good judgment and an ability to move resources in response to contingencies are important for an organization to be effective.

As it stands, the people who are most entrusted with assets: President, Treasurer and Internal Auditor, are people who have been selected by the Directors as being committed cryonicists who are trustworthy. The Directors are selected by the Voting Members, one-third of the Directors elected every year. The Voting Members are also committed cryonicists who have contracts and funding in place for cryopreservation.
If they are Option Two, they must have been Members for at least 3 years to become Voting Members:
http://www.cryonics.org/By_Laws.html#_IIIB_

The biggest danger is that the Members make poor choices in electing Directors and the Directors make poor choices in selecting Officers. Democracy is not protection against crooked politicians. On the other hand, I think it would be very difficult for a con-man who was seeking to get access to CI assets to become President or Treasurer. It would require a monumental job of "acting" to fool everyone for many years that the candidates are committed cryonicists. I think there is little danger of "con men" being make President or Treasurer. It is a greater danger that popular people with poor judgment are selected.

We have been moving away from decision-making authority at meetings because so many of our Members and Directors live at such great distances, rather than near Michigan (which had previously been the case). Decision-making authority has been placed in the Directors and in proxies mailed to Members. Marta's scenario of a group of "con-men" attending a meeting for a take-over is not possible according to our By-Laws as outlined above. But Bob has pointed to a loophole that I had not noticed before:

http://www.cryonics.org/By_Laws.html#_VA_

The worst aspect of the above By-Law is that it allows changes to be both PROPOSED as well as PASSED by 2/3 of Voting Members attending a meeting. I think that this should be changed so that changes to corporate policy can only be made by a quorum of the Membership through mailed proxies.
Ben

From Ronald Havelock, PhD, OD
Member CI Scientific Advisory Board

Having read Marta's concerns first I was inclined to share her alarm, not being an expert on take-over scenarios, and was then somewhat reassured by Bob's rejoinder. However, there is a broader issue of institutional survival which must be addressed forthrightly. Marta notes that one source of threat is our capitalization, but this threat is two-sided. If we have too little in reserve, we will not be able to counter various threats, legal, environmental, and other (e.g. the cost of liquid nitrogen or other essential supplies skyrocketing, attacks by various religious or environmental interests, a looney sabatour as well depicted in the movie CONTACT, you name it).

On the other hand, if we have too much in reserve (as might be the case for ALCOR), then we become another kind of target for looting. We should recall that ALCOR, some time ago, decided to recruit an outsider to manage their affairs, a logical move for a growing organization that I might have approved of if I had been on their board. They survived but the quandary remains. CI relies heavily on the goodwill and personal commitment of a very small number of people at the center. Ben Best is a rock, and we are very lucky to have him, but he is, so far, mortal. How do we prepare for the future? I don't think it is one hundred years, a very long time in the corporate world. I think it is more like two or three hundred, years. Especially for those who are now preserved. I have no immediate answers but think we need to keep this concern very much in the forefront of our thinking as we move ahead.
Ron


Some members feel CI should devote more time and resources planning for the reanimation of cryonics patients.

From: Jordan Sparks

Considerations of reanimation are a complete waste of time. It will be so far in the future that society will be completely different. It is absolutely pointless to debate what the legal structure might be like, how much wealth you can take with you, how much retraining you will need, etc. Those are issues that we will deal with after we come back. There is only one priority, which is to survive.

Please try to think about these issues like an immortal. If you owe a million dollars when you wake up and you have billions of years to pay it off, then you essentially owe nothing. Conversely, if you increase your chance of survival by 1%, and you live for billions of years, then you've just added a billion years to your life expectancy. Do you have any idea how much wealth you could generate in that time? Let's just say that you would be astronomically wealthy.

That's why it irritates the piss out of me when people start talking about using the resources of CI to plan for reanimation. They obviously haven't really thought it through.

Jordan (New CI Board Member)

From Ron Havelock

I agree 100% with Sparks. The focus of attention and resources should be almost exclusively on the intact preservation of the brain and, where possible other organs. On the other hand, outsiders and some potential members will start out with questions about the revival process, and we all have a natural level of curiosity about these far future events, but for us at the beginning of the twenty-first century they are essentially irrelevant concerns. All we know for certain about the future is that both medicine and human culture and technology will make enormous and transformative advances over the next millennium.

Among these will certainly be the vast extension of the "normal" life span and an accompanying capacity to revive humans and animals previously defined as permanently dead. We do not know that we will be among these, but it is possible, perhaps only remotely possible, that CI and ALCOR patients of the present and past will be among the fortunate. We must trust these future revivor people to be there and to be responsible and caring for us, holding our best interests in mind in the context of their time and circumstance.

We must maintain a stable and growth-oriented organizational structure or structures which can preserve those now frozen as well as welcoming untold numbers of additional patients for an indefinite period. No small task. This requires a combination of staff competence, legal security, and fiscal soundness.

And we have to advance that state-of-the-art technology and preservation practice, increasing by increments the possibility that intact patients will be delivered to the unknown and temporally distant revival systems and organizations can take over. We should keep our eyes on the prize, as the saying goes.

Ron

In the search for a suitable name for this magazine there have been many e-mail exchanges suggesting different names and name combinations.

This is from Robert Ettinger A story that first appeared in Analog of June 2005--Th Policeman's Daughter, by Wil McCarthy--uses the word "immorbid" instead of "immortal," meaning no natural death. Not bad. It is also available in an anthology, Science Fiction The Best of the Year 2006, ed. Rich Horton, Prime publishers. The story, incidentally, concerns a future where people travel by fax machine, and can also be multiplicated or backed up the same way, and of course fax machines can print out just about anything you want. The story involves legal and psychological complications of multiple instantiations scenarios.
Bob