MINI-CRYODIGEST

JOHN de RIVAZ REPLIES TO A LETTER IN THE NEW SCIENTIST

You won't wake up

From Ralph Scurlock

I am surprised that, leg-pulling aside, New Scientist has allowed itself to be associated with the "science" of cryonics, based as it is on a false interpretation of current cryogenics and its medical applications.

To seek immortality through whole body freezing in liquid nitrogen after death is a science fiction fantasy; it cannot be realized in the foreseeable future for several reasons.

The difference between successful cryopreservation and failure lies with size and achievable cooling rates. A single cell survives freezing if it cools so last that the entire cell freezes at once. Such cooling must take place at around 100 deg C per minute, even when using cryoprotectants.

If cooling takes place more slowly, the water in the cell freezes first and the consequent rise in concentration of dissolved substances within the cell kills it, with no hope of later revival. Only thin sheets of human tissue, and single cells, can be cooled fast. enough.

Furthermore, optimum rates of fast cooling, and re-warming, vary widely between different tissue types.

In practice, cryopreservation is therefore successful only for sperm, blood, embryos, dermis, corneal tissue and the like. Even for small 3D organs such as the kidney, successful cryopreservation for transplant surgery has proved to be impracticable. Cooling to 4degC without freezing preserves the kidney for perhaps 48 hours, but that is all Cryopreservation of larger organs, or the entire human body, is therefore most unlikely in the near future.

Southampton

My reply, emailed to letters@newscientist.com today:

The letter from Ralph Scurlock on page 26 of New Scientist seems to miss the point of the cryonics competition. Eve ryone knows these facts about cryopre servation, including cryobiologists work ing at cryonics organizations, who arE seeking methods of minimizing this damage.

Cryonics is a speculation that futurE technology will be able to restore the damage to which Mr Scurlock refers This damage can be described as "atom: in the wrong place". If nanotechnolog (or indeed something completely differ ent and yet not conceived) can be devel oped to put them back in the right place, then restoration is conceivable.

Even if the chance of reanimation into youthful, good health is only small, then this smal value is better than the zero value o: burning or rotting your body after death Nobody can at the present time quantif, this "small value" unless they know the future.

The aim of the competition has been tc get people to think deeply about the issues surrounding the application of science, and not to base their opinions of tightly held beliefs or current practices.

Sincerely, John de Rivaz

Like Christianity, Mohammadism can suffer from religious fanaticism.This problem may not even be restricted to religions based on THE HOLY BOOK (known as the Bible, particularly the 0ld Testament). I say this based on activities of Hindu fanatics against those not Hindu in India.

Unfortunately religious fanatics took over the Muslim countries centuries ago, in our Middle Ages --- after which a brief blooming of Muslim science came to an end. But fanaticism slowly wears off with time, unless something happens to make it flame up once more

Though it IS very hard, we want to treat everyone, particularly if they're interested in cryonics, as individuals and not members of some group. Yes, to be logical here this would include not only Muslims but also Christians. And in a largely Christian society, Christian fanatics may turn out to be much more of a threat to us than any Muslim fanatics --not because the Muslims won't engage in terrorism, but because the Christians will be much more aware of cryonics and the message we are sending out. Muslims simply want to kill "Westerners."

And yes, I can imagine fanatics joining a cryonics society specifically to bring it down. We need to be just as watchful of Christian fanatics as we would be of Muslim fanatics. Otherwise it helps for all of us to be acquainted with one another, to judge the metal of which we are made.

Best wishes and long long life for all,

Thomas Donaldson

....a sub-set, even a single individual, from any named group probably would unplug anyone in suspension if they achieved power. . The other danger they pose to cryonics is their willingness to nuke or use weapons of mass destruction which would either destroy storage  facilities or harm those who care for them in the future.

This doesn't mean the whole named group would. The important thing is to insure that a tit for tat response is aimed at transgressing individuals, not the group as a whole. Thus, for example, in the case of a cryonicist being autopsied, a hate campaign against all coroners and pathologists would be ineffective (and stupid).

It is guaranteed to alienate all coroners and pathologists. However one (within the law) aimed at specific individuals involved in a particular case is valid -- it discourages the others from behaving in a similar manner, and may even win some support amongst other free thinking members of the same profession.

This idea is hardly original. It is expressed legally and internationally in war crimes tribunals -- singling out transgressing individuals can serve to reduce hatred and cries for revenge between groups.

However the principle is often lost at lower levels of bureaucracy. "He is only doing his job" is still a defense that still appears from time to time. The best way cryonicists can further their cause is to insist that every single individual remains responsible for his own actions -after all, few people are conscripted into a particular job these days.

Sincerely, John de Rivaz:

A RECENT QUESTION ON CRYONET:

Are there still trusts to hold your money for you while suspended? What choices are available? "

Dave Pizer replied:

I.have a wonderful trust set up to hold my assets (and increase them) while I am in suspension.

These trusts are complicated to set up because of the laws dealing with dead people (are frozen people dead - try to cover all bases), how long can a trust last, can your relatives bust your trust,

what if the cryonics company that stores you goes bust, can the money be used to protect your suspension and get your frozen body moved, will taxes eat up your trust, and tons of other problems. I think my trust handles most, maybe all, of them.

Even if you don't have a lot of wealth, you can set one up, fund it with life insurance proceeds, and when you come back, you should be very wealthy.

If you already have a lot of wealth, a cryotrust may be the best way to protect that wealth.

I don't have my trust on a disc or I would be glad to post it. But what I would rather do is have a conference once or twice a year at Creekside and have the attorney that set mine up be there to explain how to do it and give each attendee personal advice and answer all questions.

If there are others out there that are interested and would be willing to attend a weekend trust retreat, let me know. A possible agenda might be like this:

Arrive Friday evening

Dinner social get together with other like-minded people

Saturday,

Breakfast, a lecture on the trust, pass out copies and written material

Lunch afternoon free time to review the material

Dinner evening a conference where we all get together and ask questions of the expert.