CIYG DIGEST

Selected messages from the Cryonics Institute Yahoo Group’s Forum

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cryonics_Institute/

Sara Olson has written a carefully thought-out and eloquent proposal in the Jan-Feb 2005 issue of THE IMMORTALIST ("A Modest Plan", page 8). I support her efforts to make cryonics affordable and accessible to as many people as possible. I have made similar efforts, originally focused on developing more low-cost preservation technologies. Like Sara, I have thought that "We cannot afford to ignore those who desire to survive...for the sake of our own survival as well."

I believe that Sara is essentially asking the Cryonics Institute to act as an insurance company for people who cannot gain coverage through normal insurance channels. CI is not licensed as an insurance company. I believe that we could face problems with government regulators if we attempt to behave like an insurance company. I believe that efforts to become licensed as an insurance company could be costly in time, money and energy. And I believe that the prospects of success are not good.

Even if government regulators were not a problem I am doubtful that CI can do a better job of estimating risks than professional actuaries. I am doubtful that a significant number of people would join the program. I am doubtful that the program could soon or easily cover the cost of cryopreservation of any or all of the participants. I am concerned that the program could easily fail and create much disappointment, frustration and bitterness. And I think that the costs of administering the program would be high.

I really do hate to see people excluded from cryonics for financial reasons. Cases such as the one I described on page 25 of the Jan-Feb 2005 issue of THE IMMORTALIST torment me. We are are all vulnerable to changes of fortune -- it can happen to any of us. But costs must be covered. If more people were interested in cryonics then economies of scale could drive down the costs, but fewer than 150 people in the world are cryopreserved. I hope that Sara and others will not give up on seeking ways to make cryonics more accessible and affordable.

Ben Best

Sara Replied:

No, I'm actually not asking CI to make itself into an insurance company. I'm asking it to set up a financing plan supported by a fund made of charitable donations for those people insurance companies have deemed "uninsurable." If the person is financed and they die without having contributed enough to their suspension, then their funds should be returned and their contract terminated, as I believe I mentioned in the article.

I think that the fund should probably be cut off at a certain time for a certain age group (maybe after the age of 60), but those younger with uninsurable" status should be able to decide whether they want to pursue this financing plan, with full understanding that if they die too soon, they will not be able to be suspended, based primarily upon how much was available to the fund. That member could also determine how quickly they wanted to pay off their suspension with their current condition in mind.

I'm certain the fantastic legal minds that contrived the CI contract can put together something with these clauses intact so the person taking out the financing would understand fully the ramifications if death took place before the fund could feasibly cover the remainder of their expenses. This is why I suggested compiling the fund first; if this were to take place, then CI would have an idea regarding how many members they could take under this type of contract and how far along in payments that member would have to be in order to be able to be suspended. I'm also rather sure that there will be some members who would be willing to contribute their payments to the fund if they died before their contract could be fulfilled, further strengthening the fund.

There are many CI members with a full life ahead of them that have been denied by standard insurance because of something ridiculous, like ONE high BP reading, a history of depression or other personality disorders, or simply because of their current placement on the planet. I think that with simply a little bit of extra work and consideration, the Cryonics Institute could open its doors to ALL of these people without risk to its current members.

Sara

*****

I have heard it said that creative people suffer more frustration and disappointment in life because they try so many more things that are out-of-the-ordinary. This pessimistic view probably doesn't adequately account for the great rewards that come from success, but it is true that the world can be a very conservative place and that people are often reluctant to change the way they do things.

People are certainly reluctant to take on new work without a great deal of incentive to do so. Pardon the preamble, but I do want to make it clear that I empathize with innovators and I don't want to reject new ideas without due consideration -- and I want to use them when feasible.

The simplest view of Sara's plan -- or of a portion of the plan -- could be regarded as a Prepayment Plan. Actually, CI already has a Prepayment Plan, although it may not be well-publicized enough. Any CI Member can prepay as little or as much money as often or as infrequently as the Member chooses.

Currently 23 CI Members have made prepayments. Eight of the 23 are for less than $28,000 and the rest are for $28,000 or more. I prefer allowing Members to prepay amounts at times of their own choosing rather than attempting to police their payments in any way. Policing not only has administrative costs, but goodwill costs. Administrative costs would be particularly high for monthly billing. However, if a Member wishes to voluntarily send checks monthly, that would be fine. If a Member wises to prepay through monthly deductions from a credit card or PayPal, that too would not be an administrative burden, but we would have to deduct the credit card or PayPal fees from the amount of prepayment.

Possibly a plan for regular monthly deductions from a bank account could be arranged, but I have not investigated the costs or procedures for implementing this.

Fortunately, we have not yet experienced a situation where a Member who has made prepayments deanimates with insufficient funds in their Prepayment Plan. But if this does occur, either the Estate or family must pay the balance or we would follow the directives of "Rider A" (version 1: refund the money to beneficiaries, version 2: donate the money to CI).

A Cryonics Aid Fund may sound like "A Modest Plan", but it is not as simple as it appears. If the Fund paid for deanimated Members who had insufficient money in their Prepayment Plan it would either be acting as an Insurance Company or as a Charitable Trust. There are government regulations, licenses, etc.

involved in creating both Trusts and Insurance Companies. In discussing this idea with Robert Ettinger he suggested that interested CI Members could create a Trust or Benevolent Association independent of CI.

A serious implementation problem, however, is what might be called "Moral Hazard". Participants in the program would have incentives to pay as little as possible so as to obtain maximum benefit. Bitterness of some participants against others can easily arise where mutual cooperation is a high expectation. And as I mentioned, policing efforts are both administratively costly and a potential source of ill will. It is not my desire to rain on anyone's parade or to discourage anyone trying to find new ways to make cryonics more affordable and accessible. But potential problems need to be carefully considered before attempting new projects.

Ben

*******

Unfortunately this sort of idea has appeared before, and all that "the fantastic legal minds that contrived the CI contract" can come up with are suggestions that "it is merely playing with words and it is still insurance" or that it is simply legally unsafe. Regretfully I have to agree with them, as anything legally unsafe could result in some legal adventurer seeing a chance of personal profit and/or career advancement in driving CI into bankruptcy by litigation around the loophole.

If the membership want to go ahead with it, they'd have to set up a committee with no connection to CI and willing to give serious money to the project and employ a creative "live wire" lawyer to produce a legally correct statement suggesting how it could be done. If what they would have to pay him were instead used to give free cryopreservations, it would probably make a significant increase in the membership and in practice achieve a similar result - without running the risk at the end that they could be told "despite what you have paid, we have proved that it really can't be done.".

Sorry to be a wet blanket, I wish reality was otherwise.

******

It has taken time, but I am finally signed up for suspension with the Cryonics Institute. I look forward to joining you guys for a few decades of cold sleep in Michigan, then we can start having some real fun.

As a resident of Europe, the only practical option I see at this moment is moving to the US before death, otherwise it is a logistic and legal nightmare. I think we should work harder at developing the European support structure, with collaborating physicians and lawyers to solve problems for members who die without sufficient warning.

Like I believe many others, I listed the CI as a beneficiary of my life insurance policy regardless of whether I am suspended after death or not (sent papers to Andy last week). If I cannot be suspended and die irreversibly (accident, delays, legal things, etc.), I would wish that my money contributes to ensuring the survival of someone who could not have afforded it otherwise. So I am all in favor of creating a fund to pay for members in need.

********

Dear Sara,

I too like to encourage creativity, as sometimes it does indeed produce great value. So, keep trying, please.

However, my reaction is, if there is any way some prospects can convince themselves that somehow they might not have to pay for all of their suspension, that invites them to continue that which is all too prevalent anyway: neglect or procrastinate their own funding. Therefore, my first reaction is that even the mere existence of a charity, separate or otherwise, to pay for under-funded contracts would be harmful to cryonics as a whole.

If anyone gives money to an individual for his suspension, I encourage doing so only with infinite secrecy, lest any publicity result in someone else dying of non-suspension.

Reading between your lines, Sara, with much respect, I think you may be somewhat like me in that you would like to see everyone frozen. I started promoting cryonics in the early sixties and only over the decades have I accepted that I will be suspended long before the world is converted, if ever. In the sixties I even founded the Kentucky Cryonics Society and spent some money publicizing it, but let it die, when after several years it had exactly one paying member, me. Since then, so far, I have persuaded only two persons to sign up, one of whom is currently in suspension at CI. However, I am still at it, and two lives is not nothing, is it?

********

The simple fact is CI must take care of its own before it can start bailing out others...countless millions have been spent on the less fortunate to try and boost them out of poverty and countless millions have done more harm then good as witnessed by the dependency created by public assistance....and while the government can keep writing blank checks with tax payer money...CI has limited resources, on the other hand if it were possible and profitable in a business sense to somehow increase membership and overall growth by reducing prices then I would be all for helping out those who might pay less...but it can't be forgotten that CI has to be wise with its spending and pricing structure so it will be here in the future!

Dennis K

One of the big problems with cryonics is demonstrated by the fact that many people who are signed up for cryonics are single men with few social contacts. They have the money or earning ability and they have no commitments beyond themselves.

The problem that is not solved by the proposed Cryonics Aid Fund is that if a man considers signing up he then starts worrying about other members of his family. If he has a wife and three children, then it is £28k times five. He may also consider parents or siblings. Many of these people would rather spend their money on things like holidays or keeping up to date with cars, hi-fi or computers.

******

A small added note. I don't think there is any longer much incentive to offer lower-cost options, such as freeze drying followed by room temperature storage. The potential savings just aren't there, let alone enough to offset the loss of quality. Our current cost for liquid nitrogen is already almost negligible, and our general overhead would not be lower for cheap options. The saving at most would be a few thousand.

As to the pain of empathy, dealing with that is a condition of living. We are having nightly lows near zero Fahrenheit in Michigan now, and countless animals and birds are freezing and starving, along with a fair number of humans.

I can't even set out food for the birds and squirrels, because it attracts rats and mice with which we cannot afford to empathize. Life is tough--and then you die. But then....maybe we can make it better.

*******

From Brent

Recently, Ben Best took the time and posted membership data starting at the inception of CI, following a request that I made. (Thanks, Ben!) I am working on a project to determine a possible future membership growth rate. I'm slowly making some progress, but have been sidetracked by personal and professional events lately. But, I have developed several spreadsheets and charts, and hope to have the results soon.

I believe that I am following a logical course of reason, and have spent several hours digging back through my college statistics books. I will either post my conclusions here on the Yahoo Group,

or will post a link to my website with the information. I admit that I am no great mathematician, so please be kind when I do post the results.

Hi Brent

My name is Stan Rosenbloom, I'm a lifetime member of CI but never participated in the Yahoo Group. I'm a former math teacher and would be happy to work together with you on the membership projection,

*******************************

I have been studying and reporting upon alarm systems for cryonicists -- especially those living alone (see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cryonics_Institute/message/858 ).

But what is the next step after the alarm is activated?

First, of course, it is valuable to try to determine if it is a genuine emergency. If, for example, Robert Ettinger's alarm was activated, and I was contacted, I would attempt to phone him if I hadn't been called already automatically. If I was unable to reach Mr. Ettinger by any means then I think that the best thing to do would be to (1) call 911 and (2) quickly try to drive to Robert Ettinger's house and/or get someone near Robert Ettinger's house to drive there.

An ambulance is probably the fastest way to get someone to a hospital. If Mr. Ettinger's heart is still functional, then a quick trip to the hospital may keep him alive. If Mr. Ettinger has deanimated then a quick trip to the hospital is the fastest way of getting him pronounced legally dead by a physician. By driving to Mr. Ettinger's house there is a chance of being there when the ambulance is there -- and of following the ambulance to the hospital. This would allow me to know which hospital Mr. Ettinger is at and may allow me to initiate or get help initiating administration of heparin, CPR and possibly even administration of ice -- while I contact others for assistance.

In the United States municipalities often pay much of the expense of an ambulance, but a user fee of several hundred dollars is required from those receiving the services (more for Advanced Life Support than for Basic Life Support). Some of the costs may be covered by health insurance if the call is proven to have been a genuine emergency. The costs are typically only incurred when the patient is transported -- application of a defibrillator in the home would not incur a charge in most cases, I believe.

For a narrative story about ambulance costs, see:

http://www.americaninsurancedepot.com/protectyourself/ambulance.htm

The 911 universal emergency number service was begun by AT&T in the United States in 1968 and currently is available in some form for about 99% of the population. Different emergency numbers are used in different countries. Locals and travelers outside the United States would be advised to learn the relevant numbers for their current locations: http://www.sccfd.org/travel.html

In earlier messages on this list there has been discussion of information to be included on the emergency bracelets issued to Cryonics Institute Members who have funding in place and who have executed contracts to be cryopreserved:

In light of the fact that necklaces are more likely to be seen and used than bracelets by emergency medical personnel, I have been wearing both a necklace and a bracelet. I previously customized my bracelet and I have just gotten around to customizing my necklace.

Aside from being more likely to be seen by emergency medical personnel, a necklace also has the advantage of being able to carry more information. There is room for 7 lines on the front and 11 lines on the back. The front carries the emblem, and therefore has less space.

Because of the circular shape, not all lines can have the same maximum length, however. The maximum length of a line on either side would be 22 characters. The shortest lines would be about 12 characters. My new custom necklace contains the following information:

FRONT

BEN BEST CI-24

FOR MEDICAL

EMERGENCY OR DEATH

CALL TOLL FREE

(866) 288-2796

PAGER 313-990-5916

WALSH 586-293-3390

BACK

CALL IF DEAD

WHOLE BODY DONOR

UNIFORM ANATOMICAL

GIFT ACT TO

CRYONICS INSTITUTE

TOLL FREE 866-288-2796

PAGER 313-990-5916

WALSH 586-293-3390

Any CI Member can order a custom bracelet or necklace at the cost of $20 for either a necklace or a bracelet. You can follow my pattern or use your imagination to say something more to your liking -- and more suited to your personal needs.

From David Verbeke

I’m a Belgian CI member. I wanted to write a little comment regarding the cryonic suspension of pets.

I would like to ask the person who suspended his or her dog for what reason he decided to do so? Is it for personal reasons (because you liked the animal very much) or because you want to extent the life of the dog for the dog itself? Because I think that if the suspension of animals happens for the second reason (for the life extension of the dog itself), human values are projected on animals that don't belong to them at all.

The mortality of humans and other animals is totally different to my regard. Of course physically there is no difference. The big difference is that humans are aware of their mortality, animals aren't. So if one suspends his or her pet because you would like that very special animal back in the future, I see no problem. On the other hand, if one suspends an animal to extent the life for the animal itself, I think there's something wrong with that way of thinking. You would try to give the animal a sort of gift it cannot even comprehend, because it is simply not aware of such a thing as being and not-being. The animal is just a collection of intentional systems who lack the interaction that can come to an understanding of the end of life, ... as humans can. I don't say it should be denied, there's no wrong doing in suspending animals. I just think it's the reflection of human knowledge/fear on a creature that is totally different and is totally unaware of such knowledge/fear.

***********

I know Ben Best wanted to get off this subject, however since he was/is my dog I feel obligated to respond. I suspended "Thor" because of both reasons that David Verbeke mentions, among others. In regards to David's secondly stated reason: "if one suspends an animal to extend the life of the animal.." I would like to comment on the fact that small children may also not be aware of "being and not-being" yet we do everything we can to protect them from "not-being".

When I took Thor out of the van at the vet clinic he began to shake like I've never seen him shake. He was truly terrified. Knowing Thor as well as I do, I have no doubt that he knew something very bad was about to happen.

Regardless, for years he protected me and my home and I felt obligated now to try to "protect" him as well by giving him the same chance I would afford any other member of my family. In fact, during this process, my 86 year old grandmother who has stalled for many years on making a decision concerning her own possible cryonic suspension, decided now that she knew suspension was about to become a "reality" for Thor, she too would someday join him.

She is now a member of CI and will soon have a suspension contract signed.

If her eventual re-animation is successful, I will have no doubt that Thor played a huge role in this. My main reason for freezing Thor though is a simple one: he was and always will be my best friend.

From Brian

In reply.... I believe the author of this email needs to remember that all animals have a fear of being physically injured or killed. In addition, most animals have fears of being separated from those who care for them in some way. As a result of severe brain damage (and other disorders) there are many human beings who have lost the ability to understand the concept of death. Animals in a slaughter house surely perceive that death is near. .they may not be able to verbalize this fear....or even philosophize about its ramifications, but that doesn't mean that their experience with death is any less meaningful than that of a human being.

Ben