CI ONLINE DISCUSSION GROUP

The Cryonics Institute recently instituted an online discussion group for CI members. {Cryonics_Institute@yahoogroups.com}

The forum has attracted a number of participants, and from them one senses a sense of frustration at not being given the necessary support in making local suspension arrangements and being able to communicate with other local CI members, for assistance in an emergency. What follows are a few representative messages. With the exception of Robert Ettinger, Ben Best, and James Swayze, only initials are used. While acknowledging that CI has some shortcomings, and indicating some changes will be made, Robert Ettinger and Ben Best also offer a bit of reality.

To: Ettinger@aol.com

Bob,

I must say that CI’s current procedures for getting a member from A) initial sign up to B) ready to be suspended by a local funeral director, is inadequate.  What is missing is a "Member’s Guidelines to Establishing a Cooperating Funeral Director." 

I consider myself to be a pretty practical guy, a program manager by profession, coordinating relationships and logistics in an engineering environment.  But I am at a loss to see how to effectively proceed to get a funeral director’s cooperation.  If I am having these difficulties, I can only imagine what other CI members, who are less practically inclined, must be going through.  I imagine, that like me, many or most never contact a local funeral director and, like me, remain unprepared for a satisfactory deanimation.

Reading CI publications leads a perspective member to believe that becoming a member includes access to a network of cooperating funeral directors, trained and ready to perform surgery when you deanimate.  In reality, when you join as a member, you are probably not near a participating director and in that case you are on your own to figure out how to establish one (and to pay for equipment and annual retainers?). Most helpful would be a "Member’s Guidelines to Establishing a Cooperating Funeral Director" that covers the following:

* Various levels of funeral director support provided, from cooling and shipping, to cooling, CPR, profusion, and shipping.

* Strategies for establishing a good relationship with a funeral director, including things to look for in comparative shopping, questions and comments to make on initial contact, fees the member may have to pay the funeral director, options for members to supply the funeral director with equipment, annual procedures to ensure continued cooperation, etc.

* Some examples of real life cases of enlisting funeral directors.

* A web page of names and locations of funeral directors currently cooperating with CI. 

It would also be very nice if CI offered a "Funeral Director Maintenance Plan" where for, say, $5,000, CI establishes the local director and supplies him with necessary materials, and for, say, $1000/yr, CI will give the director an annual refresher course.

You see the problem is, I am short on time, and this means it will be very easy to let this critical step of entering stasis, deteriorate to unsatisfactory levels.

_______________________________ 

From: Ben Best

A number of people on this list have

expressed concern over their isolation and have requested information about other CI members living in their area. While it is desirable to put people in contact with each other, CI cannot give-out information about members without the permission of those members.

I have seen first-hand (in Toronto) the

benefits of members of different cryonics organizations working together in a local group. Cryonicists are few and far between so it makes sense for them to work together in areas distant from the main headquarters of their organization even when the organizations are different. Such cooperation was agreed-to in the CryoSummit of August 2002.

I have recently spoken to Jerry Lemler and Tanya Jones of Alcor about the idea of a consolidated list of contact information about cryonicists. American Cryonics Society members would also be welcome on such a list. But the issue of

confidentiality remains.

In order to publish contact information about CI members we would need another piece of paperwork from the members (signed/witnessed/notarized) authorizing such disclosure. I support the inclusion of this paperwork in our documentation, but I suspect it will be months before even as many as 20% of our members have returned this document. To complicate matters further, there would probably be CI, ACS or Alcor members who would be willing to disclose contact informattion only if it was part of a list that did not include members of other organizations. There would also be members who would object to any publication of their name and e-mail address on the web -- even if not in computer-readable form -- because diligent spammers could transcribe the information.

Despite all these complications, I want the CI paperwork to soon include a document that authorizes (or prohibits) disclosure of member contact information-- either on the web or as a booklet. The default, of course, is to prohibit disclosure.

Along the same lines, I would also like paperwork to authorize public disclosure of cryonics arrangements and cryopreservation details. Without this document we will continue to assume confidentiality. But the more people are open about their cryonics arrangements and the more often prominent community members are seen as having made such arrangements, the sooner cryonics will

be accepted as a respectable alternative to burial and cremation.

Ben Best

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KW

We also live in a small town and had the same initial concerns.

When my wife recently had major surgery, I arranged to have my local funeral director stand by with me in the waiting room during the procedure. I had spoken with him several days earlier re the situation, our CI contracts, had him call CI for details & procedure, and, of course, settled on the amount of compensation for his time and preparation.

Our first conversation in his office began thusly; "Larry, as a funeral director, I am sure you are more aware than most that we, each of us, have to face our own mortality in our own way. This is *our* way."

He was most receptive. He probably considers us a religious variant, no more peculiar than Buddhists, Hindus, Catholics, or the dozens (this is Central Texas) of Protestant flavors that comprise his clientele. Tolerance is essential in his business. As is confidentiality. Not to worry!

HD

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I don't know what would be involved in the way of time and effort required for a secure directory with controlled access. Perhaps Ben could shed some light on it.

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I am with you on this. The way I found the only other cryonicist in my area was by letting Andy know that it was okay for him to give him my contact information. This worked out very well, and we are talking about forming an informal support group here. I have a few friends that are in the process of signing up, so there should be four of us soon, with contracts in this area. We've also managed to secure local funeral home's assistance, although I will feel more comfortable with them when they see there are more of us.

I would not want my real name or information given out on a public list either, but I like your idea.

Sincerely,

ST

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From JC

Fellow Cryonicists of all organizations:

I need help with regard to my geographical location.

I have no disabilities, Indeed I have no health problems at all, but I am 82 years old. I did have a serious stroke 6 years ago from which I recovered completely. There have been no recurrences.

I live in the Las Vegas area and there is no cryonics support capability that I know of anywhere near here.

Because of my advanced age, my wife Ellie and I plan to move by the end of 2004. I'd like information and recommendations about locations which are populated by other cryonicists; so that when I do eventually approach death there will be knowledgeable support

in my area; including the capability for rapid-reaction preparation and transport of a near-death or newly-dead person.

I have lived in Chicago and I grew up in St. Louis so I know the general climate of the region. I would prefer not to live in the Detroit area because of its similar climate. (However, I would elect to live in the Detroit area if that were the only area of the type that I describe herein). I know that there are "collections" of cryonicists in Arizona and in Florida, but I don't know exactly where or how many

and which ones are best prepared for mutually cooperative "prep" activities. Also, are there other areas besides those two which are "cryonicist-friendly"? All-things-being-equal, we prefer Arizona,

I would be happy to contribute a nominal monthly fee, a subject that was discussed in the referenced issue, to maintain some kind of "standby" capability. I would also be happy to actively participate in the preparation of those in the area who deanimate ahead of me; And I would be willing to perform other supportive tasks on a limited, part-time basis. Finally, my wife is much younger than I so she wishes to continue working. Any help in deciding my move and any suggestions will be appreciated.

JC

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I would highly recommend you relocate to the Scottsdale, AZ area. It has the Alcor Company there as well as a very good CI friendly funeral home. You may wish to contact CI for the funeral home point of contact information. Scottsdale is an upscale community with a lot of the amenities of Las Vegas including fine healthcare facilities as well.

I presently live in Yuma AZ, the pits for both funeral and medical services, and plan to eventually move to Scottsdale. I'm 61, but am gainfully employed here in Yuma until retirement, another 4 years.

I realize I'm taking my chances, but am willing to do so by living here in such a remote area. I do have a friend with a CI contract in my area which is helpful. At 82, you would want to be close to either CI, or at least an Alcor. CI and Alcor both have the needed supplies available and close at hand, and have cooperated on a limited basis.

So, my best recommendation is Scottsdale Phoenix areas, if you desire a climate similar to Las Vegas, and want to remain close to the facilities to provide cryonic suspension with the fastest response times.

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This year has been a busier than normal one for the Cryonics Institute -- about 6 cases so far in 2003. This would mean that perhaps 6 funeral directors out of many thousands had a single cryonics case so far this year. Our list of funeral directors who have had cryonics experience is thus a small one and quickly becomes out-of-date. The big exception is our local funeral director Jim Walsh who helps with a large portion of the cases.

Is it really worth the time & energy of a funeral director to stock current CI materials in case of an *unexpected* cryonics emergency? Worse, will a funeral director who expends time & energy on something that never materializes be left with a negative impression of cryonics?

In most cases I think it is best to actively involve funeral directors only when there is a real prospect of business for them. In practice it has not been difficult to find cooperative funeral directors

when there *is* the real prospect of business. "

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Ben is absolutely right on this point, and I should have been clearer. If in the future (hopefully) cryonics becomes significantly more popular (with at least 100 times more signed-up members overall), then it would become profitable for funeral directors to advertise the service along with their other (standard) services. I agree that this would not be a reasonable course right now.

However, I am suggesting that as soon as a member does have a full paid contract, that C.I. should be pro-active. They should first check with the member and ask him if he wants them to find a cooperating Home, or if he would like to try first. If not, they should immediately check on the availability of a cooperative funeral home in that member's area, especially if there are no previously signed members from that area.

They should verify by direct communication with the Home, the capabilities of that establishment and let the signed up member know (at least within one month of sign-up) if the Home will handle cool-down, perfusion, and shipping of a member, and that it pledges to have on hand the proper perfusion materials supplied by C.I. The Home should establish a reasonable price for the storage of the materials for the customer. C.I

should let the member know when the materials are shipped. If no fully cooperating director or home can be found, C.I. should notify the member of the situation and work with him/her to find the closest service in a neighboring town.

So what I really meant by a official list of cooperating funeral directors, is one for cities where there already is at least one fully signed up member.

I think that the idea of having a booth at a Funeral Trade show is an excellent idea. It helps persuade the attending directors that we "fit in" to an existing familiar framework of products and services.

JS.

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DEAR BEN;

HAVE CREATED WEB SIGHT FOR MY GROUP-WWW.METROPOLITANFUTURIST.COM-ANY FEEDBACK NYC LET ME KNOW! IF I DONT GET INFO WILL CONTINUE ON OWN. JIM SUTTON JSUTON5@NYC.RR.COM

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JS is a very welcome member on this list. I am very impressed by his can-do engineering approach which seems to cover every angle.

But I think he missed an angle or two. When I became active in cryonics in the early 1990s for several years I attended the annual banquet of funeral directors in the Toronto area. Many showed varying degrees of interest in cryonics, but a very few were hostile to the idea.

I subscribed to the two Canadian funeral director journals and wrote a cryonics piece for one of them -- CANADIAN FUNERAL DIRECTOR magazine. Nothing much came of these activities except that I may have had a tiny voice of support for the removal of the requirement for embalming of bodies shipped out of the Province of Ontario.

I visited Barry Albin at his establishment in the UK. Before the Larry Johnson fiasco, cryonics has been mostly a "man bites dog" story for the media -- an entertaining oddity. Albin has gotten more than his share of press coverage because of his high-profile willingness to help with cryonics cases, despite his personal lack of belief in the value of the procedure.

I also spoke with a funeral employee who had sacrificed several working days to take Mike Darwin's training course in the early 1990s. The man was extremely bitter at having wasted his time & money in getting trained for something he never once used. It was about 13 years ago that Alan Sinclair opened a fully-equipped (complete with ambulance) cryonics facility for the UK. Since that time there has been exactly one cryonics case involving a British person living in the UK.

I can empathize with what John says about shyness --I had to make an effort to overcome it myself. The first cryonics case in Toronto -- in fact the first case ever in the Canadian Province of Ontario -- occurred one year ago (documented on my website at

 http://www.benbest.com/cryonics/toronto.html).

Jim Walsh contacted a local funeral director who agreed to handle the case as long as it did not require cryoprotectant perfusion.

I went through the phone book and compiled a list of small, secular, privately-owned (rather than part of a large chain) funeral homes. I made only a couple of calls and the owners I spoke to were more than willing to help. But when Mr. Walsh offered to train his initial contact in perfusion technique, that man changed his mind and agreed to perfuse.

It may be that the negative publicity associated with Alcor's Larry Johnson problem may make some funeral directors more reluctant to cooperate. Hopefully that will blow-over. Jim Walsh has suggested that CI have a booth at a national funeral director's trade-show and I hope that this is feasible to do in 2004. I think it would improve our image and be a means of making new contacts. Bill Faloon has told me that his advertisements for funeral directors willing to help usually results in a flood of responses. He said some may even be EMTs or paramedics as well.

Again, I think it is best to try to involve funeral directors only when there is an immediate prospect of business. When his wife was appearing to be fatally ill, Robert Ettinger paid a funeral home a $1,000 per year retainer to be supplied with materials and to be trained in rapid & effective response to a cryonics emergency. For those who are willing to spend the money -- or have a good reason to think a deanimation is imminent -- I recommend this approach.

Otherwise, I think the main emphasis of cryonicists should be to build a local support network of cryonicists, friends and relatives.We should educate ourselves in how to help deliver the best cryonics care that we can and train others so that they can help us.

Alan Sinclair and his UK group is my exemplar and I am also proud of the group I have helped build in Toronto. For more suggestions along these lines I recommend looking at my website:

"The best can be the enemy of the good".

It is too easy to get discouraged by being overwhelmed by what others have accomplished. Any improvement is an improvement and should not be sneered-at or discounted because others have done better. And every improvement is a step toward another improvement.

Ben Best

 See my below email and Bob’s response in which Bob Ettinger has put in motion an effort to provide members a "how-to" orientation document for setting up local help.  His suggested timetable of "a few weeks" has likely been delayed due to the legal wrangling going on at CI these days, but I look forward to the document whenever CI gets to it. I’m really glad CI has started this network list.  

BN

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Subject: Re: finding/training a funeral director We will implement your suggestion about a standard instruction -suggestion sheet for members to line up morticians, probably within a few weeks.

Bob 

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To: Cryonics_Institute@yahoogroups.com

Responding to some questions raised:

James Swayze has commented, and Ben Best may have more to say, but let me say just a bit about CI and local help for members at a distance, where at least some people seem to have persistent misunderstandings.

First, there is no simple, quick, convenient, turn-key, one-size-fits-all system for your arrangements. The basic CI contract says that our responsibility begins when the patient is delivered to us, and this is the understanding for the minimum suspension fee of $28,000.

Naturally, members at a distance will also need local help and transportation, and this must be arranged and funded.

There are various options, depending on location and circumstances, and somebody has to figure it out and put it in place. In particular, the duties of the local mortician and any possible local volunteers must be spelled out and preparations made, including training and equipment as indicated.

It is more convenient for the member if the local and transport costs can be included in the suspension fee guaranteed to CI, typically through life insurance, so we offer a Local Help Rider along with the Cryonic Suspension Agreement for those who want it. CI then pays the local mortician when the patient has been shipped, according to the terms of the Rider.

The duties assumed by the local mortician, and the price, will vary and require negotiation, perhaps among several parties--the member, CI, perhaps other members in the vicinity, perhaps local volunteers, possibly other cryonics organizations, and the mortician. Finding a willing mortician close enough is usually not difficult, but may take some time.

The whole process will take time and demand attention from our staff, which costs money. Therefore we cannot--as many prospective members would like--get everything neatly lined up to the prospective member's satisfaction before he joins. He must join first, and then we will work with the member and do our best, within our resources and as prompt as feasible, to get all the arrangements in place. If at any point the member is dissatisfied, he can always cancel the contract, if he has one, but cannot recover his membership fee (or dues in the case of an Option Two member).

How local volunteers fit in is highly variable. In England there is a well organized and equipped and trained volunteer group, centered on the initiative of Alan Sinclair (now on the CI Board of Directors) and others. But even this group--let alone others much weaker--cannot represent themselves as agents of CI, for obvious reasons of legal liability. Any involvement of volunteers must be informal from the point of view of CI.

The members who plan to use the group, and the group itself, must see to their own legal protection and make their own judgments as to what is useful and safe. In particular, care must be taken not to get crossed wires between the volunteers and the local mortician.

Members and prospective members must avoid the "us-them" attitude, that "we" (the members) are customers and "they" (CI) are vendors. CI is not a business in the usual sense, and its members are not customers in the usual sense. Obviously this is one of the reasons for the slow growth of cryonics--that it isn't easy, simple, or cheap.

We are trying to make it easier, and in some respects simpler, and at least relatively cheaper, but it won't happen overnight. There is no free lunch. Unless you are rich enough to hire people to do the scut work for you, you will have to put up with inconveniences and tiresome chores.

But you are dealing with chores and inconveniences every day anyway on many levels. At a minimum, you have to run a household with its constant problems and maintenance--it's just the cost of living. With cryonics, you have a chance for a whale of a lot more living with only a moderate dose of inconvenience.

Robert Ettinger

From Ben Best

Thank you for the comments and for the complaints. I do want CI members to complain about perceived shortcomings because that is how we get information about what members want and what we can all do to address problems.

The Local Help Rider states that if a CI member is close to deanimating (or, alas, has deanimated unexpectedly) that CI will use best efforts to find a funeral director who will prepare the patient's body. Recently, as as result of comments in this discussion group, I authorized David Pascal to attempt to contact local funeral directors for members who are not at immediate risk of deanimating, but who want some reassurance that a funeral director will be available if needed.

This service is *not* part of the CI agreement and I authorized David to do it as an experiment in helpfulness for members who don't feel comfortable with contacting funeral directors on their own. I offer no guarantee that this service will continue and I am not really convinced of its value -- suspecting that funeral directors might be irritated by being inconvenienced over matters that will not result in immediate business.

There is a vastly deeper issue to be considered here, however. Too many members think of cryonics arrangements as being like hiring a plumber to fix a broken water pipe.

Minimum funding and minimum effort will give you minimal results. A better analogy for CI is that we are supplying you with lifeboat materials, but it is up to you to use the materials properly and have them available when needed.

Minimum funding of $28,000 (Option One) or $35,000 (Option Two) does not even pay for the services of the funeral director whose help CI will secure. Shipping costs are not paid by CI and a person who lives a great distance from Michigan would be well advised to have Local Help funding to cover shipping costs as well.

If you deanimate in your house unexpectedly or in a motor vehicle accident you can't expect immediate service -- there will be a period of destructive warm ischemia. Ideally you will have family members or friends who will act rapidly in an emergency to cool you down and contact a funeral director. If you live alone you should make some provisions to insure that you cannot deanimate and lie for days without being discovered.

Cryonics organizations cannot be omnipresent or omniscient. Standby services are not part of the CI contract. Alcor gives no more than 3 days of standby without charge --which means you should not deanimate before their team arrives and that it will be costly to deanimate after more than 3 days.

If you want such services with CI you must pay a funeral director extra (as Robert Ettinger did), hire them from an organization like Suspended Animation or arrange a local group of relatives, friends or cryonicists to do standby.

The dirty truth is that the majority of people in all the cryonics organizations die under messy circumstances -- with damage from aging & disease and dying at inconvenient times & places.Life is too vulnerable -- that is our ghastly existential condition. There is no guarantee that cryonics will work even under the best circumstances. But the more we do the better our chances are.

I will do what I can to make CI more omnipresent and omniscient, but it is up to you to try to make up the difference.

Ben